Episode 11 - Pre-Christmas Parenting Orders

podcast Oct 31, 2022
Do Divorce Right
Episode 11 - Pre-Christmas Parenting Orders
31:04
 

The Do Divorce Right podcast is a new podcast dedicated to looking at the many different aspects of divorce,  interviews with women who have their own incredible divorce stories or those who can offer some great advice as you go through yours. Hosted by Becca Maxwell, a divorce coach and relational intelligence consultant, the focus here is to help you to find the strength and support to help you heal, feel lighter and in a better frame of mind to face the inevitable challenges of your divorce journey.

In this episode, Becca interviews Faiza Gabriel from Lighthouse Legal, a family lawyer who has been practicing family law for the past 15 years. Faiza is dedicated to advancing the field of family law and assisting her clients in navigating the safe passage through the storm.

This episode is a reminder as the Australian family courts are approaching a deadline by which you must file your parenting order by November 10 in order for the court to review it in time for Christmas.

You can find Faiza at lighthouselegal.com.au

On Instagram at: @lighthouselegal

 

Audio Transcript

Becca 

Welcome to the do divorce right podcast. I'm your host, Becca Maxwell. And I'm here to help you transition through your divorce with ease and integrity, to not only survive the challenges of your divorce, but to thrive as you come out the other side of it with a much better life than you ever hoped possible. On this show, we talk about many different aspects of divorce, interview women who have their own incredible divorce stories, or those who can offer some great advice as you go through yours. The focus here is to help you find the strength and support to help you feel lighter, happier, more positive, and then a better frame of mind to face the inevitable challenges of your current journey.

Becca 

Okay, so this week, I'm talking to the beautiful Faiza from Lighthouse legal. Faiza is a family lawyer who's been practicing for the last 15 years in family law. And the reason we wanted to get this discussion out now particularly is because there's a deadline coming up for the family courts in Australia, where if you want to have your parenting order seen by the court for Christmas, it needs to be submitted before November 10. So this is a reminder for anybody who is going to need that in place to learn a little bit about what Faiza's recommendations are here. And welcome Faiza. So lovely to see you. Thank you so much for having me on.

Becca 

Today. Thanks. So I will ask you a little bit about the deadline and what's required. But before that, can we just take a step back and ask, what are parenting orders? Exactly? And how does that compare then with a consent order or a parenting plan?

Faiza 

Sure. So I'll probably go as I'll start with a second part of that question. Yeah, great. What does versus a plan? So a plan is, you know, something that people can come up with between themselves, usually in private, sometimes through mediation or dispute resolution, where they've had a chat and have worked out what they think should be right, and they come up with a document and we call it a parenting plan. The key difference really, is that a parenting pursuing a parenting plan from a court perspective is not binding. So it is relevant in terms of showing the pies and tensions. What was the plan? Yeah, but there's no real binding effect to it. So very often, the client will go off and get a parenting plan done through a mediator or a dispute resolution process. And then through the solicitors, we sort of strengthen it and make it into a court order. So order sort of, and I'm talking generally, in the family court context, court orders kind of have to the two types of orders that I'm going to be talking about mostly, but we have parenting orders, which is anything to do with children's arrangements and who looks after them where they live, etc, etc. And the other one would be property order. So we're not talking about unstable financial settlements. to do with, you know, how are we going to put the assets etc. So that part of your question in terms of how are parenting orders different to consent orders? The answer is, they're not different at all. It's just the type of order you can get. So orders can be made either by a decision by a judge, or by consent of the parties. So we're both people agree. And they've signed off and agreeing to have this made into a formalized binding document endorsed by the court, we call those consent orders.

Becca 

And so it's possible to have a parenting plan, just the two of you. It's a very amicable split, you've decided how the children are going to go back and forth to the different homes, how they're going to spend holidays, it's possible to have that and not worry about getting the court approval on it, isn't it? However, if one of those parents changes their mind, or doesn't live up to that agreement, there's nothing that can be done about it? Absolutely, yeah,

Faiza 

that's where I would start. So obviously, a parenting plan is a fantastic way to start. And not everybody needs to run to court and go to get orders, etc. In fact, the court very much encourages and likes people to come up with their own plan, you know, it's your family. And you know, who is this third party to tell you how to live your life. So they very much encourage people to sort this out for themselves, think about what works for your kids and your family and come up with a plan. And so plans are always a great starting point, in terms of this is what we're going to do. Everyone knows what the plan is, so that we can plan around it, you know, make arrangements for travel and so on based on the plan. But yes, the biggest difficulty with a parenting plan is that it's not enforceable. So if one parent decides to stop following it, or they've changed their mind, or you know, a change of circumstances has happened, and the other person is now refusing to agree that we need to change the plan. For instance, the plan then kind of falls apart or falls away. And that's where people then find themselves going to lawyers trying to figure out what to do now that the plan has fallen away before the pot and then it might be that you go to court for orders to give the plan and enforcing binding effect. Go consequences if you breach for example. So

Becca 

I was going to ask who would normally require or come looking for a parenting audit? Would would you say it's normally either they've had an agreement in place? And that agreement isn't being adhered to? Or is it where they just can't even come to an agreement at all?

Faiza 

Both of those, as well as the people who do come to see me are those who have made up a plan, but wanted to have some sort of teeth to it so that if there is a breach, there are consequences that can be met. So it's often I would say, to really formalize a plan to make it enforceable, you make it into a court order by consent. But yes, often the clients who are seeing, especially this time of the year is because they couldn't reach an agreement themselves. There's no plan, or there was a plan, but it's not being met. And so they're trying to find solutions around well, what do I do now that the plan is not working?

Becca 

Okay. So what does the court take into consideration then when making that order? You've said, ideally, a plan would be in place, which is what both parties want, it's not always going to be the case. So what else might they take into consideration?

Faiza 

So with the family court, the primary consideration is always, always always what is best interest for this child, what's in their best interest. And so what is in their best interest may not be what people would notionally consider fair, or what would they would think should be the way, but they look at it from the child's perspective. So there are certain criteria that the family court, sorry that the legislation sets out, and we take into consideration what is in the child's best interest. And that generally, with parenting arrangements involves them having a meaningful relationship with both their parents, and then with their extended family as well. The main sort of consideration over and above that, though, is safety for this child, so you wouldn't want to set up a parenting arrangement, you know, sort of banging on about this equal or not equal but a relationship with both parents, when actually there is a major safety concern. And in between that, therefore, it's not appropriate to be having arrangements for both parents, because there is a safety concern. So that's where we start as a starting point, and then working our way through that. So what about

Becca 

the age of the children then does that factor in? Would there be different expectations of time with the parents based on their age?

Faiza 

Yeah, there is some of that there are definitely you know, social studies that have shown that, you know, children of a certain age are perhaps more aligned or bonded to a particular parent, and so a significant time away from that parent would actually be detrimental to that child. That is why very young children, we very seldom see overnight arrangements, taking a very young child away from their primary carer. It's just to do with their bonding and their own sense of security around the world. So we try to ensure that if, if you've got a very young child, and I'm talking, you know, the toddler, yeah, baby. Yeah, yeah, babies and toddlers, you tend not to take them away from their primary care, often the mother for more than a, you know, more than a couple hours at a time, and definitely not for nights at a stretch. So yes, if you've got young young children, you know, trying to go for sort of a 5050 time arrangement where you've got super weak and weak about Yeah, that's not likely to be actually in the child's best interest, it's more likely to cause distress. And sorry, go on. So I was gonna say, of course, as the children get older, their coping mechanisms will stuff like that improve a lot, significantly better. So then it's not unreasonable for a 12 year old child to be doing a week here in a week that because they actually can manage it, they've got the communication skills to say if they're uncomfortable. So the the age of the child is irrelevant, as far as what will be appropriate and in their best interest. But it's definitely not, say a guiding factor for all discussions. Again, it depends on our

Becca 

Sure. And what age typically with the children be asked about their input.

Faiza 

So this is a bit early for me, because I'm very big on keeping children out of the family, what I don't place for them to be dragged into it, they are already dealing with, you know, parents who have separated and their family unit not being maybe the traditional style of family unit. So they're already dealing with a lot. And I am very, very hesitant to draw children into the conflict by asking them what they want, it puts a lot of pressure on their shoulders to say, you know, and there's a lot of worry about saying the wrong thing and upsetting the wrong parents. So I'm very cautious about asking children what they would like, I'm much more you'll find me often sort of pressing my clients to say, well, this is an adult decision, and it needs to be made between the adults. So you might ask the child what they'd love to do over Christmas or what they'd hope to see. And they might have their own ideas. They might be used to seeing grandma at Christmas for lunch or something like that. So that's a valuable input to have from them, but it's

Becca 

not just telling them they get to decide. Yes, yeah, I still do that with my children now, which is you know, we're planning ahead for might be thinking about Easter or planning for the Christmas holidays. You know, what would you like to say? What what are you hoping to achieve? What would you like but it doesn't mean they get to decide no,

Faiza 

In my capacity as an independent, Jordans, why I do often interview children. And I will ask them, What would you like to see what would you like to see happen. But I have to be very clear and say to them well, that I appreciate you telling me what you'd like. But I can't promise that's what's going to happen, it's going to be a consideration. So the quote does take into consideration the views of a child, particularly as they get older, and I'm stroking 12. And up there, their voice carries a lot more weight, the older they are, because the court is not going to make an order that's so opposed to what the child wishes, particularly as they're getting into those preteen and teenage years, children at that age are very susceptible to riding away. And if they are savvy enough, they will hop on a bus and leave. So there's not much you can do to bind a child of that age into doing something they don't want to do. A younger child is lazy, you pick them up, and you strap them in the car seat. And so they don't really have a choice, but older children, we definitely would defer to their views a lot more. But again, it's 

Becca 

without ever promising them anything. Right, you can set them up with a

Faiza 

decision, and it shouldn't be a weight on their shoulders. Agreed.

Becca 

Okay, beautiful. What has surprised your clients most if anything about the decisions that are made relating to parenting orders?

Faiza 

I think a lot of that comes to do with this concept of fairness. What is fair? And to be honest, in the family court, there's no such thing. There is no baseline of fairness, there's no such thing. So I think often one of the challenges I have is sort of setting those expectations right at the beginning that you know, especially with parents who may not be the custodial parent, and they have this notion of well, it's not fair that the other person has the Christmas every holidays, and I don't get to see them. That's not fair. That's not how it works. So you have to obviously set those expectations, right that, you know, they're there. There must be reasons why this is not happening. And these are obviously decisions that and discussions that should be happening way upfront. But I would just say to them, you know, keep plugging on, keep trying don't give up with you know, if you didn't get this year, try again next year. But yes, fairness is a sort of an arbitrary concept. But that I think is a big factor.

Becca 

It's so subjective, isn't it? What's exactly what's fair for one family? One individuals completely different? I totally understand. Okay, so people come with an expectation that they're going to have a fair decision made. And it's just can't You can't deliver against that, because nobody's idea of fair is different. You're absolutely right. And so since that deadline, we spoke about the deadline being November, the 10th. All right, yeah. November The 10th. It's coming up, what do people need to know then about the paperwork that's required for those to take that step.

Faiza 

So if you're not already in court, and by that, I mean, you haven't actually got proceedings on foot, you need to start an application with the court. So the document that we start any court proceedings with is in WA, it's called a Form One application for initiating orders. And with that, you would do an accompanying document called a case information affidavit. So the form one document is where you set out what you're seeking, what would if you'd like, I'd like to spend time with the children as specific as you can. And then the case information over David is sort of where you set up the story part of it the why, why am I seeking these orders. So then you'd explain a little bit about the history that you've either not had them, or you've tried to have discussions, and they won fruitful, and therefore, that's why you're seeking these particular orders. So those are your starting documents, if you already in court. So there's actually a form one that you might have found some time ago, but you haven't been able to come to any arrangements around Christmas. And obviously, Now time is of the essence, you'd be looking to file a Form to application in the case. And then that is supported by another document called an affidavit. And, again, the form to document is where you set out what orders you're seeking. So I want to spend time be as specific as possible. And the affidavit sets up the story part, which explains why that hasn't happened, why you've not come to decisions, and why what you're seeking and why you're seeking.

Becca 

So any parenting plan that you had in place any changes to the parenting plan, any person not delivering against it, all of that story with it would then go into the affidavit, wouldn't it?

Faiza 

Absolutely, yes. And that's why I say it's relevant if you have had them before, because of what we'll take that into consideration if there was a parenting plan in place. While it may not have been enforceable by itself, when you are now in the court, and you show them that there was actually a parenting plan. And this is what what it was. The court does take that into consideration as to the orders that they make.

Becca 

And what about history does that also can if you don't have a parenting plan, there isn't something in writing where the two of you had agreed that this was the way things had were going to happen. If there's a history than the previous months, the previous years does that A substitute kind of a Surrogate Parenting Plan, or it's just

Faiza 

Well, yeah, absolutely any, any, in any area of law, the history is irrelevant, because that is why we have certain concerns is because historically, this is what's happened. So as much as I'm big on time, people, let's go forward from here, let's draw a line in the sand and look forward and not live in the past, you have to a degree, consider the past because that is what has formed your concerns or your belief that you need to get these orders in place, because there's no other way to get consent. And it's because of past behavior. So it is irrelevant, you do go down that road. But I'm always, you know, trying to encourage people not to sort of get stuck there and ruminate on it too much. Because at the end of the day, you know, you've separated with this person, but you've still got children together, there's a long way to go. So,

Becca 

you know, I tried so you can contextualize, but don't dwell too much on that. But what's the goal for the future? Exactly.

Faiza 

And you look at them more from a concern perspective. So if you had concerns about, let's say, you know, you might sort of Terminus neglect, but actually, that's coming from a place of, well, you never really had the right car seats in place, for example. So yes, you are looking at the past, these are my concerns. And so the orders you're seeking is obviously based on that concern, but that can be addressed in a way to then go forward in terms of making it a productive outcome.

Becca 

Yeah. Beautiful, gosh, Faiza. That's really, really helpful. I feel like this is probably the most specific podcast episode. Talking about, you know, experiences is super, super narrow and drilled down. Exactly. But the people who need to hear it kind of need to hear it right now. Especially if they don't have anything in place for the Christmas holidays. And in Australia, their their long summer holidays. It's time. So I want to ask you everything that I can so that people have this, you know, depth of information right now. So my next question was around what impact to parenting orders have on child maintenance payments? And what should people consider then? What is the relationship there?

Faiza 

Well, I was gonna say, well, technically, I would say there shouldn't be any correlation between them. But obviously there is some generally, when we are considering child support arrangements and parenting arrangements, we do consider them as separate entities, because child support sort of sits by itself and it sits outside of the family court. I think some many years ago, the court was inundated with applications about child support. So an agency was set up and it was taken out of the hands of the Family Court. So sometimes when we are looking at parenting orders, it might feel like we're doing them an abstract, because we're not thinking about the child support implications of it. But I have found quite often, in practice, people have reservations or objections to making certain child parenting orders, because there is an impact on child support. So child support agency, at least calculates child support based on the number of nights that a child is with a parent. And so yes, when you do have parenting arrangements, that then shifted the number of nights, and the other non custodial parent now has not overnight time with this child, it then correspondingly reduces the amount of child support for the residential parent. So there is that correlation. But with that said, I am also very strongly of the view that that should not be the driving factor for not allowing time to be spent, again, with the child, you know, the Paramount thing is for them to have a relationship with both parents where it's safe for them to do so. And so put yourself in the child's shoes, you know, yes, you might lose, you know, a few dollars, you know, 10s or 20, maybe $100, over, you know, having a few nights at the Christmas holidays, or during the long holidays with the other parent, but from the child's perspective, that time is golden, you know, and you can't, money can't buy that. So

Becca 

quality experiences and building those relationships? Absolutely.

Faiza 

And I'm sure that's an easy thing to say, for people who are actually reliant on that money. My encouragement, then would be to have those conversations with the other parent and say, Look, I'd love you to have the time I am genuinely stressed and concerned about the financial impact on me, is there something we can do to meet in the middle? Would you be prepared to continue to just pay that difference? And let me at least I can function and live. And then you can have the time and you'd be surprised how many times that does actually work. So when I do have male clients, they're actually more than happy to pay the child support difference, because the time with their child is a lot more valuable to them, then that child support difference. Get nods,

Becca 

encouraging to hear Yeah,

Faiza 

definitely have that conversation. You know, even though it may feel awkward, you'd be might be surprised at the outcome.

Becca 

Yeah, and even if it is a high conflict situation, you know, we we don't want to invite additional conversations, but this is one worth having so that you are protecting your finances and you are ensuring that the children get those experiences as well. That's right. Yeah. Okay. So what advice would you give to someone who's not been able to negotiate an agreeable parenting arrangement with their ex partner? What would you tell them? somebody's listening today, they know they don't have a lot of time to get the paperwork in. They haven't been able to negotiate an agreeable parenting plan, what would be your suggestion,

Faiza 

whenever unhelpful suggestion is keep trying the missile. Well, even if you miss the deadline, keep trying. It's very, very common. I had one last Christmas season, where the parents had filed a Christmas application it happened that while Mums the residential parents it happened that that Christmas weekend fell on dad's time, so mom had no time. So she filed an application for her to have some carved out time, during the Christmas weekend itself. The matter went to court, we were there, I think it was on the 19th of December or something like that we were in court trying to get these orders done. And outside the courtroom, while we were waiting for our meta to be called on the parties negotiate an agreement, so it's never too late. So always continue trying to negotiate, you may get there and keep trying. And if you don't actually get to that agreement, if you're the parent who's not seeing them, don't let that stop you from you know, still buying the gifts for your child still sending a card store reaching out to your child to let them know you're thinking about them during the season. Can't wait to see them again when you can, and try again next year. So it's always a tricky, sensitive time, because of you know, it's the festive season. And people have traditions and holidays and things that like to do together. So it can be very painful when you don't have that child to celebrate with. But don't give up and just keep trying to have that arrangement. And continue working on your sort of communication skills with the CO parent. Because yeah, the only way to really get anywhere is unless you've got court orders is to try to improve that co parenting communication and relationship and build that trust in baby steps so that you can continue to have this relationship with your child. Yeah, for the child.

Becca 

What I might add to that would be even if it's not quite working out, the way you would hope it is maybe you don't get to see your children on Christmas Day or Boxing Day this year. And it's the first time and it feels devastating. There's still an opportunity to create new traditions. You know, these are just dates in a calendar, you can still do a Christmas morning reveal on the 28th Oh, you know, you can create new traditions in your family that are flexible. So looking for those opportunities to still create magic and fun.

Faiza 

I absolutely love that idea. And I think from a child's perspective, the magic of it is still there. They will grow up remembering that oh, we I remember we did this. They never necessarily remember the exact date, but they will remember when I was little. We had you know this tradition at mom's house and this and that's how so? Yeah, exactly. So don't let the dates don't get hung up on the dates, I think is a very good tip. And try to just get that time when you can. It's a bit like Valentine's Day, right? You don't wait till Valentine's Day to show love.

Becca 

That's right. That's right.

Faiza 

Think of it that way. You can you know? Yeah.

Becca 

Great. All right, beautiful. And do you have a point of view on what is the best in class parenting arrangement?

Faiza 

The short answer is no. Because for every family you know what, what what might work for one family may not work for another. So have a look at your own family. Look at what holidays are important to you. It might not actually be the day your family traditions might involve Christmas Eve or Boxing Day. So have a look at your own family and then work from there. I think what does work well obviously is with children get a bit of both in terms of having some time with both families. Some families will do a week about arrangement which means the week of Christmas wherever they may be is where they have Christmas and the parents try to make sure an alternate the rear so that at least it's not always with one parent. That works for some families. Some families choose to have perhaps the even the day and then they do a handover later on Christmas Day. So that next parent has boxing day and the day after some parents will split Christmas day itself. And so they'll swap around who does Christmas morning so and then they might do a handover around lunchtime. So that we're both parents, especially with the younger ones. I'd seen that more commonly. Because that joy on the child's face of opening presents first thing in the morning can be quite explicit. So they will swap that around. So yeah, definitely depends on what works for your family what you're sure conditions are, but there's no real best in class. I think the best kids get to see both.

Becca 

Yeah, I did an episode recently with a lady called Sam who has a fantastic co parenting arrangement with her ex husband. They live a couple of streets away from each other. They have half week on off, but on Christmas morning and birthday mornings. The parent who isn't staying with the children the night before will come over to the other house to be there when the present So opened, Oh, good. It's so good and even other partners will be involved, right? They've gone on to have other relationships. But just to know that the door is open, you know, they're welcome to come into this space, open the presents together, give them a kiss and a cuddle for birthday or Christmas, and then leave again. You know, I think that's just an admirable goal.

Faiza 

Absolutely. I think that is the gold standard, honestly. And obviously, it's not possible for every family. But I can only imagine from the child's perspective how wonderful that is. I speak to so many children. And I you know, sometimes when I asked them my magic one question, which is if you had a magic wand, what would you do? And sometimes I've had them say, I wish Mum and Dad would just get along, or I could see both of them on my birthday. And it sounds really simple. But you know, from a child's perspective, that's all they really care about. They don't necessarily know and they shouldn't know, all the bad things that might have happened during the relationship, why mum and dad didn't work out. But they do want to know that they're loved by both of them by both parents. And I think these little things help, you know, and then obviously, as they get older, kids get really smart. And they know that they can play one off the other. So it's really important that parents can at least present United Yeah, well, somewhat united in the sense that you can't say, Well, I can do this in mom's house because mom or dad's gonna go well, let me just check with mom. And then that sort of washes that entire.

Becca 

I have a whole tradition around. Belief around that, which is well what happens at dad's house happens at dad's house. That doesn't doesn't affect what happens at mom's house. We don't have ice cream every night, but can have ice cream for breakfast at dad's house. That's fine. That's his house. Yeah,

Faiza 

yeah, that's a good way to tackle that one. Actually. Yeah.

Becca 

I don't mind what happens there. That's great. Good for you. Dad's house. Yeah, not here. Yeah. I think there's, there's so much in this, I, I do think it's really important when we're talking about trying to communicate, and put aside our own feelings as much as we can in order to get the children the experiences that they might want to need at this time. So being able to kind of shake off what upsets you about the the ex partner and stop being triggered by their words or their behaviors in order to put that child experience first, it's really important. I really hope people get their arrangements in place. And if they need that court order, they submit the paperwork before November the 10th. Is there anything else you would want listeners to know about co parenting in the lead up to this Christmas break? If they're listening to this episode in time,

Faiza 

I think just I'm gonna reiterate the communication aspect of things that's really important. And I think we talk a lot about the Christmas break is just that Christmas holiday. But don't forget, there's six whole weeks in this long period in Australia. And so think about it from that perspective as well. You know, some people, that's the only time they have to take leave from work, and then that's the only time they may want to be traveling. So be open to those things as well. I think we don't talk enough about travel arrangements. And it's not uncommon, or camping, even, you know, it might sound pretty simple, but it's actually the number of cases I see around being able to go camping. So you know, these are conversations to have, and have, as soon as you can, if you're thinking of doing that this holiday season with your children started having those conversations with the other parent, generally, from a court perspective, what the court would look at is that you give enough notice to the other party of your intention to travel, you should be allowing, you know, as much information to go through as you're comfortable with, but particularly around where the child might be staying how to contact the child while they're there. You know, so if it's the staying at a particular hotel, you know, there's no necessarily no harm in revealing that hotel and saying, Well, we're going to be staying, you know, at this resort, these are the numbers, you don't necessarily need to go and see the detail of the itinerary of the day. But if you aren't doing something like on this particular day, we might want a rapid whatever, we're doing that sort of stuff, then you might want to share that and say, Look, on this day, we won't be contactable because we're gonna go rafting. But you know, we'll call you after or, you know, that sort of thing. So a lot of it has to do with sort of just giving the other person and I've noticed, being open in the communication so that they can also allay any concerns they might have. Talk about those concerns, if they are worried, why are they worried what what's bothering them about going on a trip? And you might find that it's actually something that you could manage? Like, I'm worried you might not put a car seat on or don't worry, here's the car seat, we're fine, you know. So that's the level of communication that's expected and obviously as the parent on the other side, who is we call them the consenting parent, but really consent cannot be unreasonably withheld. So if you have been provided sufficient notice and you know, all the arrangements are sound, you know, where they're staying, you know, the itinerary and so on. There, there should not really be any reason why you're objecting to it. If it's purely on your own fear, then that's something that you might need to work on for yourself, but the plus right don't necessarily use that as a as a reason to prevent this travel from happening.

Becca 

Yeah. Beautiful Faiza, thank you so much for your help if people have further questions or need to speak to urgently, how can they find you?

Faiza 

Yes. So I'm at Lighthouse legal. So feel free to reach us. You can find us online, you can give us a call. And we're happy to book in a complimentary 15 minute call with anybody who might need a bit of a tip where to go from here. Or obviously, if you'd like to book in for a bit more time, you can do that through our website or email me at info at lighthouselegal.com.au

Becca 

Beautiful. Thank you guys. And I will put those details in the show notes too, so that people can access that really quickly. Have a gorgeous day ahead. And I'm talking to you again soon.

Faiza 

Thank you. Thank you so much for having me on. Becca.

Becca 

Thanks for listening. I hope you took something of value out of this episode. I'm your host Becca Maxwell. And you can find me on the web at do divorce right.com on Instagram at do divorce right. I look forward to connecting with you there.

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