Episode 24 - From Divorcee to Dating & Relationship Coach

After 21 years in a marriage, Debbie decided to make life-altering changes. She bravely took the first step and left her relationship despite feeling guilt, shame and fear. In this podcast with Becca, she reflects on these experiences of change as she openly shares what it was like for her along the journey towards building a new life after divorce.

 

Visit her website: https://debbierivers.com.au/

 

Audio Transcript

 

Becca 

Welcome to the do divorce right podcast. I'm your host, Becca Maxwell. And I'm here to help you transition through your divorce with ease and integrity, to not only survive the challenges of your divorce, but to thrive as you come out the other side of it with a much better life than you ever hoped possible. On this show, we talk about many different aspects of divorce, interview women who have their own incredible divorce stories, or those who can offer some great advice as you go through yours. The focus here is to help you find the strength and support to help you feel lighter, happier, more positive, and then a better frame of mind to face the inevitable challenges of your current journey.

 

Becca 

Deb, thanks so much for spending some time with us to talk us through your story. Not only are we going to talk about your marriage and your divorce, and the business that you work in now, I just think there's so much you can teach women about building lives again, after going through divorce. So you had mentioned to me that you left your marriage after 21 years, which in itself is huge. What I thought was really interesting was the terms that you used around that was to say, you felt so much guilt and shame. And this was the hardest thing you had ever done. I've going straight in for the source. Gotta poke the bruises? Can you tell us? Why was it? Why? Why was it the hardest thing that you've ever done? And then let's unpack some of that guilt and shame and how that played out for you?

 

Debbie 

Absolutely. Look, I you know, as a little girl I dreamt of happily ever after, you know, like, I probably wasn't overly ambitious. I just thought I'd be married with my Prince Charming, have my perfect kids, and everything would work out. I my parents probably didn't have the best marriage, they moved from England to Australia long story. I won't go too long. From England to Australia and their lives unraveled, right? They were promised the world and all of a sudden, they couldn't get work that they want to do. It was totally different. They came in February from the UK to Perth, which is weather like we're experiencing 20 degrees. And it was I don't know, their marriage tended that it unraveled, my dad started to drink and it became hell. So I used to look at them and go, I don't want what they're having. And I thought I was really wise and I could choose the right man that I could live happily ever after. To add into that, I think when I was about 18 I became a born again, Christian. Right. So I thought that I would, you know, work on myself heal all of that stuff and make a good choice. So I was very deliberate to choose a man that didn't drink. Yeah. And, you know, I found 21 years later, I was living my parents experience without the alcohol.

 

Becca 

Oh, wow. Just reverse back a little bit. You'd said that their marriage was unraveling and that your dad was drinking? And then you went quickly to I could choose the right man. So in reading between the lines, were you projecting then dad is the wrong man? Mom is fine. Mom is good. Dad's the wrong man.

 

Debbie 

Yeah, I probably thought that it was all my dad's fault. Because he drank you know, being an adult. Now I can see that it was both of them contributed to, to whatever it was, but I just kind of probably the thing that if I picked someone different, and I was wise enough, you got to experience a failed marriage. And, you know, put into that the being a born again, Christian, I thought that God would help me choose this perfect man for me. And I would live happily ever after. And when it wasn't working out. And I was so on. Honestly, I was so unhappy. I look back and I wouldn't recognize myself now. To the person I was when I was married. I used to ask people, How can you be happy? How is it possible to be happy? Because I just felt like I wasn't happy. And I didn't know how to change that, you know, you, you go to counseling, you try all of these things. And you're still unhappy. Right? And when it comes to the guilt and the shame, yeah, I took vows when I was you know, that my husband when I was 18 So how on earth you can be wise at 18 and know what you want for the rest of your life is a little bit crazy. And married him at 18 and you know, you don't know what you want at 18 or 20.

 

Becca 

No know you don't but it is possible to evolve with somebody it's more

 

Debbie 

and I found that you know, because I took these there else, for better for worse for richer for poorer, sickness and health better or worse, I felt that it needed to be forever. And another thing I'm doing all over the place, but my mom actually left my dad. Okay, and I was 17. So we literally packed up the house. And he came home to a couch, a fridge, and a bit. We moved to South Perth for six months, it was an amazing six months, but in that time, my mom found God. And she felt God told her to go back to my dad.

 

Becca 

Right rice.

 

Debbie 

So the drinking stopped, but the unhappy relationship stayed there to some degree. So I think I also felt that if I left the marriage, I might be forced to go back or the sky would fall in? Or do you know what I mean? There was so many, I just felt in some ways that I got the same age, it was almost like I was repeating her story.

 

Becca 

Yeah. When you were, you said that you became a born again, Christian at 18. And that was while your mum did that. So yeah. So

 

Debbie 

you know, my mum, my mum did, my brother did. And then my dad did. And that was what changed him. So I'm like, if anything can stop my dad drinking and change him. This has to be a good thing. Right? But so I think the guilt and the shame. Was that how, with all that I did, couldn't I make my marriage work? How, you know, like, when I was so unhappy, I remember that we got counseling. It made it worse. You know, we, we tried. But I often think about it, you know, I've tried a lot since and I probably think different type of counseling might have worked, or we'd left it so long before we went to the counseling, that those problems was so ingrained that we just couldn't see a way through them.

 

Becca 

And was your ex husband part of the board again? The community?

 

Debbie 

Yeah, so I met him and I married him and that but you know, as life went on we still believed in some of that stuff, but it wasn't as big a part of our lives.

 

Becca 

Okay, but you were married for a long time? Yeah.

 

Debbie 

I probably I was unhappy for a long time trying trying to make it work. Look, I remember reading someone's post the other day saying, most people when they leave a marriage, have wanted to leave for a lot longer than the time that they've left. Right. And, you know, when people say, couldn't you have made at work? And look, I read that post, and I still thought a little bit of guilt and shame thinking could but I know I couldn't

 

Becca 

write. And even if you could have, is it worth being unhappy for so long? Just to stay together in a marriage that, you know, is a contract that wasn't working for you?

 

Debbie 

No, absolutely not? Yeah. I suppose it takes two people to make marriage work, right. And it. I see this often that the guy will say, Well, I'm happy and the woman's not happy. So if if one of you is that unhappy, and you can't come to a way to be happy together, you can't change the other person.

 

Becca 

No, you can't. You can't change the other person. You can't fix a relationship. One person can't fix a relationship. It needs two people working together, for sure. Did your ex husband tell you he was happy in the marriage? Do you think he was happy?

 

Debbie 

He did say he was happy in the marriage, which then threw me because I'm like, How can I be so unhappy? And you can be happy?

 

Becca 

Yeah. Was there a catalyst for you to end it? Again, poking straight at the

 

Debbie 

Oh, no, I just I think could have gone on for so long. And look, I I had actually tried to leave my marriage a year before I did. And we told the kids I found somewhere to go live. But I couldn't do it. So I stayed an extra year. And I thought I'm gonna do everything I can to try and make this work. And I still didn't make like, which is interesting. It really is. I

 

Becca 

wasn't sure if you're aware of that. But you didn't make it work. No, you didn't make it work because it wasn't up to you to make it work. Absolutely. Right. How old were your children when your marriage ended?

 

Debbie 

Um, so my my son was 13 My, my daughters were 17 and 18. Okay, So I remember my mom saying to me, Well, can't you just wait five years for your son to be okay?

 

Becca 

Okay, do you feel that he would have been more or less? Okay, five years later?

 

Debbie 

I think the timing doesn't matter. I think how you deal with the situation matters. And if I could go back in time, I probably would have loved to work for someone like you that I could have dealt with the situation like an adult rather than blowing things out and breaking things. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? You have fallout from how you end things when you feel unable to in them. And I, I wish that I just ended it straightforwardly.

 

Becca 

Yeah. How did your children react when you said you were going to leave? Before you did? So the year before you did actually leave?

 

Debbie 

The year before? Look, it was it was really hard. Like, it was harder the older my kids were, then my my son, because they all they've ever known is seems together. So they kind of didn't react wonderfully. And then when you say that you're gonna hurt your children, there is a lot of guilt associated with hurting people you really love.

 

Becca 

Absolutely. Son handled it quite well.

 

Debbie 

Yeah, look, he could kind of go, I could understand we had a chat. And I often think if I'd have left at that point, and had a way and a process to manage, that, it would have been a lot easier.

 

Becca 

Do you still have a relationship with your ex husband now? Are you still in touch?

 

Debbie 

We can be at the same place. And we could. Okay. So I think for a long time, he would have happily taken me back. You know, even. And so for him, it was painful still to be friends or to be around?

 

Becca 

Medical Contact? Yeah. Yeah. Has he gone on to another relationship since

 

Debbie 

nine? And I think some some of that was a bit of the difficulty when you when you look at someone else, and you see that they're, they're not living a life they're happy with? I found it hard not to feel responsible for that, too.

 

Becca 

Yeah, of course. Tell me about that. How have you what, how have you distanced yourself from that? taking on responsibility for somebody else's happiness? Which is 100%? Not your responsibility?

 

Debbie 

Well, exactly. And I think no, not, not, I think I know, from my heart, that we're not responsible to make anyone happy. I wish that I'd have always known that, if that makes sense. Like, we're all responsible to make ourselves happy. And, you know, I am not responsible for his happiness. And he has choices that contribute to that I have choices that contribute to that. Yeah, I'm. But you know, sorry. It's interesting how other people when they talk to you feed into that script, if that makes sense.

 

Becca 

Absolutely. What's what's on your mind?

 

Debbie 

Yeah, your family and the people around you. But, you know, the one thing that when I work with people nowadays, is about being happy in yourself first, and you create healthy relationships with with two whole people rather than you're not responsible for someone else's happiness at all.

 

Becca 

Yeah, let's talk about what you do. Now. i This is beautiful. And so you, why don't you tell us what you do? Okay, so

 

Debbie 

I nowadays I'm a dating relationship coach, and I help people I did start off helping people date and get back out there. But the stuff I like to help people do is I found in my dating experience, you know, for years, the first man that I met, that I went and dated, my kids are not going he's just chatty version of dash one, like, how did I leave a marriage? And am I

 

Becca 

smarter? Yeah. 18 anymore.

 

Debbie 

I ended up in the same situation. So I kind of did a lot of study research of how, how to change that. And with people working those patterns, to help people change, to create a relationship they want, and sometimes we think that we're wise and you know, I did it twice. Nowadays, you know, having worked through a lot of that stuff myself. It's changed my results and I help other people do the same thing. Particularly I found that Guilt and shame tripped me up for a long time.

 

Becca 

Yeah, can we, I don't want to don't want to dwell too much on on shame or guilt. But I do think it's really helpful for people to hear. So our listeners, my clients, people that I work with before they get to come to you. And you're kind of stuck in that space of grieving a marriage. So, you know, either desperately unhappy that it's ended because it wasn't their choice, or desperately unhappy that they're causing pain to those around them when it is their choice, right. There's, there's guilt in that. But all of this is really part of the grieving process. And so I want to understand how did you manage to get through that and find the strength to create a positive choice for yourself to end this marriage that wasn't working? Do you feel that the How did the grief play out for you both before you left the marriage and after?

 

Debbie 

I think that grief is the death of the life that you want it, that Death of the Family that you wanted to have, you know, you see those couples in America 4050 years and the paper on the news and you go, I'm never going to be that you go to people's kids weddings and go, Well, we're never going to be so it was it really was grieving a life that I thought that I would have, and not knowing how your life looks going forward. And I remember people saying how, you know, walking away is easy. For me. I think I said to you, it was the hardest thing that I ever did. Was the own heart because of that guilt and shame. Could I changed it? Could I have done something better? Was there some way or something that I could have done that would change that? So you're kind of walking away? And almost like I'm, I felt, and I wasn't I felt like I was killing my marriage? And was the one responsible for you know, what came after that. So not only do you have the grief for the ending? You have the shame that you were the one that chose to do that.

 

Becca 

Yeah, yeah. And how long you're saying what came after that? Was there quite a difficult period, then?

 

Debbie 

Look, I I felt, you know, I probably went through a lot of self sabotage, in my own life, because of the guilt and the shame that I I felt like, I know that I caused other people in my life to be unhappy by my choice. So I didn't feel like I deserve to be happy. But that was a very unconscious thing. And I was also really scared,

 

Becca 

that's so relatable, it really is so relatable,

 

Debbie 

scared of being in another relationship, because I spent 21 years of my, my life with someone. And it was really hard to leave like it was, it was so hard that I don't think that I ever wanted to be in the position where I might have to do that again. You know, so it was easy not to go there. Or maybe, you know, I went through a series of dating commitment phone guys, or people who were slightly unavailable because I was unavailable. I was scared as they were. So you know, lots of walls, lots of barriers, lots of, you know, pushing people away by self sabotaging, you know, maybe wanting someone to unconditionally accepted, except you. But they're not going to do that unless you do it yourself. No, absolutely. And I found that I had to let go of that. Guilt and shame, and no one really tells you how to do that. Like, forgive yourself. It takes more than just the words to forgive yourself. It is a bit of a process.

 

Becca 

It's a practice, absolute

 

Debbie 

practice. And it comes up from time to time, like you someone will say something to someone will, you'll see a post and it will come up and you have to go go, oh, I forgive myself for the choices I've made. And sometimes, too. I know that the person I am now is not the person I was then the person that made those choices, was doing the best they could with what they had at the time. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah.

 

Becca 

You can only make your decisions based on the information you have at the time. You know, situations change. This is why we say you know, hindsight is 2020 because you have a different perspective entirely. Not to mention the fact that you're more evolved as a human. Yeah, you say it's the hardest thing that you've ever done. Would you? Would you have done something differently? If you? Are you pleased? You've gotten through it? I guess. I'm trying to ask you, even though it's the hardest thing you've ever done.

 

Debbie 

Yeah, look coming out the other side. And look, this is, I'm going to answer a roundabout way. But I was a wedding the other week with people that have found love the second time around, and in their wedding vows. They go, I've met the love of my life and my soulmate in front of their children. And I'm like, I would find that hard to say in our house, because of the people that might affect you. So I am really happy that I'm in the place that I am. And I know that it's exactly what I had to do.

 

Becca 

Yeah, just thinking about what those vows I'm not sure. I believe in

 

Debbie 

a love of aligning mean either. I've had

 

Becca 

many loves. And I don't just mean romantic loves that. Just really, really big love for, you know, quick love for friendships, for I don't want to hold myself back from all of the love options. And I don't want it to be just a single soulmate or a single my life.

 

Debbie 

I mean, either, and I absolutely don't believe that. So I know that I made the right choice.

 

Becca 

Yeah. To think that I'm the love of my life, actually. Yeah, absolutely.

 

Debbie 

And I think that when you're the love of your life, a lot of your choices become different, as well,

 

Becca 

indeed. So tell me more about that. What do you think?

 

Debbie 

Look, I think that when you love and respect yourself, you don't feel responsible for making other people happy either. And it changes the dynamic. I used to. I used to think that if I could do and be better, everything will be fine. And I didn't realize how much of a victim that is as well.

 

Becca 

It's very disempowering. That's right, just empowering.

 

Debbie 

Because it just made me continually feel like I wasn't good enough, no matter how I tried no matter what I did. And you know, I probably didn't do what I needed to do. If I if you look back with the no one teaches you the skills of how to have a wonderful relationship. And, you know, I've done training the Gottman Institute since and they talk about how 69% of conflict is unsolvable. And once you realize that,

 

Becca 

because you need to make peace with it. Yeah. And kind of have a process

 

Debbie 

and and what we expect from our relationships is crazy sometimes. So I do know that you can come out of marriage, and you'll have another relationship and it will bring your stuff up.

 

Becca 

Yeah, let's talk about that. You were saying that you kind of invited your your ex husband back into your life as a new partner? In what ways does a new relationship bring up old stuff?

 

Debbie 

Well, I think that maybe the other person acts in a way that the person who divorce actually. And you can make that mean something about you. See, no one's really going to understand me. No one's really gonna love me unconditionally. There's something wrong with me. Here it is again, right? And sometimes it's the actions we bring into that. Because often we project what we want onto the other person, they don't mean that at all. Yeah, if you understand what I mean, like, Oh, if you love me, you'd understand me? Well, you'd have to tell people what you're thinking and what you're feeling and not expect people to be a mind reader in it. And in relationships. So it's all of those, I don't know, wonderful relationship skills that you can build, to have a toolkit to deal with some of these things in a new relationship. And I, I think, I remember when I was married and not so happy. What's the notebook? Yeah. The Notebook. raved about this moving on that I fell in love. Before told them told me how it's gonna work for the next 20 years. And they missed a whole chunk of the stuff that might have been helpful to see. They're just fast forward to the end. I'm like, Okay, that's interesting. So

 

Becca 

what you must work with quite a lot of divorced women. Would it be would that be fair? Yes. Yeah. And men. Okay, great. And are you seeing some common patterns that come through when people are looking to bring somebody new into their lives and feeling a bit uncertain about it? What kind of common themes do you see from people who have come from a broken marriage? I hate that term. I really hate it. And so they're divorced thinking about maybe it's time to dip my toe back in the water in the dating pool. How? What mistakes are most often made? Do you think by people going back out there? Look at

 

Debbie 

this a few. I think sometimes people think they're ready before they're actually ready. So if they haven't taken the time to repair some of the her guilt and shame, they'll get into the pattern of self sabotaging. They'll get into the pattern of choosing unavailable people, or people that reject them, and they ended up feeling worse about themselves. And there's a number of reasons why people do that. You know, if you believe you're unlovable, you create an added theory, often this stuff is very unconscious. And people that I've worked with don't really realize what's going on underneath the surface, you know that they still feel unlovable. So they bring someone in their lives that proves they're unlovable.

 

Becca 

That's right, yeah. Yeah. Confirmation bias, isn't it? It's this, this is true. And therefore, I'm going to collect all of the evidence that proves to me that I'm right, that this is true.

 

Debbie 

So what I find what people don't repair, they repeat.

 

Becca 

Great. And do you have two things on how to help people repair?

 

Debbie 

Well, the number one thing take the time to grieve?

 

Becca 

Yeah. yourself as you do.

 

Debbie 

Yeah. And grief is an interesting thing. I mean, my mom passed away last year, and you just have moments where you, you might want to cry over something a memory comes up, you miss the person. There's all these feelings. Too often people suppress what they feel. Yeah. And they don't allow it and you know, you suppress. It's like shoving that beach ball under the water. It comes. You know,

 

Becca 

that analogy also? Yeah, yeah.

 

Debbie 

So I honestly, sometimes people have to not feel to get through what they're going through. I know, when I went through a divorce, that I probably changed the group of friends that I was around for a while, because, you know, coming, a lot of my friends were Christian. There was a lot of shame from them directed at me, and what I imagined and a lot of judgment, and I was judging myself, I didn't need the judgment of the people around me. So I literally had to go and create a new group of friends. So I had some support system around. So I could grieve, and not be around people who continually judge me about the choice that I made. Because you kind of want people to trust that you wouldn't, you wouldn't go through a divorce. If if you didn't need

 

Becca 

to know. That's right. It's yeah, it's not a frivolous choice that we, we just wake up on a Wednesday and decide, I'd like to add divorce to my list of life life achievements.

 

Debbie 

What's interesting that I find, you know, some of the men that I work with consistently, is when they've been left by someone. Yeah. You'll ask them the question. Well, you know, did they tell you and it goes, yep, they used to tell me all the time. They weren't happy. They used to tell me all the time they were leaving. And it was a bit like the boy that cried wolf, we didn't believe they do it until they did it. And then we're devastated and blindsided. Interesting thing, that you don't always hear what you're saying, when you're going through that stuff.

 

Becca 

That's right. So then they would have to grieve a little bit differently. Imagine, so, a lot of the women I speak to the grief happens in the lead up to the divorce very, very often. So, in, in my experience, more often than not, the woman is aware that the marriage is coming to an end. And it's just about finding the time and deciding how to how to make it play out in the most amicable, less devastating way as possible. But in doing that, she's thinking through all of the options, and she's experiencing the grief as it's happening, that abyss of the future, you know, blanking out what was going to be the future and, you know, rewriting, getting comfortable with the idea that you don't know what the future is going to look like for a while. That is a big part of the grief journey, isn't it? What did you call it? It was like the death of the death of your dreams in your relationship that you thought you were going to have or the life you thought you were going to have. That's right. But

 

Debbie 

what I do find with some of those women is down the track that they have grieved as they've gone along. But there's still bits of groups that come up residual and maybe that they haven't totally dealt with. And again, if you you if you think going into a new relationship is going to hurt you, you're going to avoid it at all odds. So you know, sometimes shifting that shifts, everything that you attract and whether you can let love in.

 

Becca 

Yeah, yeah.

 

Debbie 

Sometimes a bit like love trauma, right? Yeah, that's right.

 

Becca 

And it's hard to get comfortable with uncomfortable feelings, because the only way to stop that beach ball from bursting out from under the water is to actually acknowledge there's a beach ball, and let it be for a while, stop trying to push it away. And it does take practice, it is a muscle to be exercised to sit with uncomfortable feelings. Allow yourself to grieve, allow yourself to feel that shame, or guilt and make choices anyway to move forward anyway. tell what's going

 

Debbie 

oh, sorry, I was gonna sound like the I don't know if I can say it properly. The Hono pono process, the Hawaiian prayer, where it's about the breath, the breath. One of what you do is you look at yourself in the mirror and say, I forgive you. I love you. Thank you. There's there's four that you say, I'm sorry. Yes.

 

Debbie 

Please forgive me.

 

Debbie 

Thank you, I love you. Yes. And, and really look at yourself and mean that each day and feel how that feels to be able to do that. And it's amazing how that can shift those feelings for the people.

 

Becca 

It's extremely powerful. I agree. I didn't know that's what it was called. Yeah.

 

Debbie 

I mean, I don't know if you read the research behind it, that the guy had actually worked with people that were had said that to people's pictures, and he didn't work with the people. And they were in a mental institution that no one could work with the prisoners in Hawaii in this particular place. And he literally said these things over the pictures and the place closed down.

 

Becca 

Because they didn't need to keep people there anymore.

 

Debbie 

Yeah, because him

 

Debbie 

doing that for them must have changed something which sounds amazing.

 

Becca 

Just energetically, that is incredible. Technically. Yeah.

 

Debbie 

So sometimes it's not. It's releasing the energy attached to something.

 

Becca 

Yeah, it's a bit like the loving kindness meditation is. You don't have to be around them. You don't have to speak to them. But to be able to imagine somebody and sending loving kindness, energy to them, and calm the way you feel about them, which might be in reality angry or hurt or pain, it releases that energy from you. And it also sends positive energy in their direction, so that they're not fighting against you not building up. They don't have that resistance to fight against. Yes. Now very powerful techniques. I do love a bit of Woo. And I do think it gets into that territory. I'm, I'm in no way a practitioner of energy healing, but I'm a big fan of learning as much as I can about it and taking the techniques that work and and applying it. Yeah. Deb, I wanted to ask you a bit more about the life you have. Now you're, you know, you're no longer feeling shame or guilt about ending a marriage that didn't work for you. You're working with people to help them find love again, which must be so rewarding. Are you in a relationship? Yes, I am. So you managed to overcome your limitations and your self sabotage and find somebody? Wonderful, I

 

Debbie 

hope? Yes, yeah. So I've been together for a couple of years now. And I'm really happy. It's, I don't know sometimes I find it interesting. He, when I learned to accept myself he does, except unlike some of the things that I used to find hard to accept, which I love.

 

Becca 

That's interesting. That's

 

Debbie 

so yeah, no, it's it's, it's wonderful. And I feel happy. And I look back at myself, how many years ago when I didn't know how to be happy. And I don't think I'd know how to recognize that person now.

 

Becca 

Yeah. Isn't that a shame? What would you tell her? If you could go back and speak to her?

 

Debbie 

I, I probably tell her to learn to love yourself and accept yourself and know that, you know, she's not responsible for making everyone else happy.

 

Becca 

Yeah. And how old are your children now?

 

Becca 

Are there in the 30s are incredible. And are they married or data? They're

 

Debbie 

all they're all with partners, and they're all pretty happy with their partners at the moment. So it's lovely to see.

 

Becca 

That's beautiful. Now, David, if you had any

 

Becca 

advice for someone who's going through a bit of a shitty marriage or divorce right now, and they maybe can't imagine what it's going to look like at the other side. Do you have any say questions or advice on how they could do divorce right? Right now?

 

Debbie 

Well, I would say go work with someone like yourself.

 

Becca 

Right. So I'll record that. Let's go back, say that again.

 

Debbie 

Having the help and the support to get through, it would have been an amazing thing to do. Because you're navigating something that you don't really know how to navigate, you know, and look, I look back and think if I'd have had some support, I felt like I was leaving a marriage with no support with anyone around me, other than going, we should make a work. And I think people traditionally go to the counselors. And I think I said, I went to a counselor, and we argued more after that counsel than ever anything else.

 

Becca 

Because people leave it too long to go to counseling. So it's about finding the right person that can help and support you through a process. And I don't always think you know, what you want at that point to, you know, that's right. It's, it can be such a lonely time. And I think one of the differences between counseling and traditional therapy and coaching, and even, you know, coaching and mentorship is that, with counseling and therapy, you're looking to those patterns of the past, and you're looking to see what we can resolve that's quite deep. And it's really important work. But you're not always in the space to do the important work. If you're just, you know, at that survival piece. Whereas a coach will help you set manageable small goals like what's what's the goal that we're aiming for right now? How do we stay focused on that? What tools do you need to get to where you want to get to short term, do the unraveling and the deep work when you're ready? Not necessarily when you're going through the emotional trauma?

 

Debbie 

Because I do think the emotions is so big at that point, you don't know how to deal with it. I remember not knowing how to deal with it, not knowing what to do only knowing that I had to do it. Yeah. And yeah, and I'm so glad that I've come out the other end. And I do feel like it's a privilege to help people now to, you know, come out the other side and, and kind of help them deal with any of the residual stuff from that. Yeah. Because that, I don't know, like, I see too many people that maybe go, I'll just be happy alone. But there is something wonderful about having someone who's got your back, coming home to your best friend, having someone that can support you and make you laugh, and all of those things that

 

Becca 

enjoy seeing you grow as well. I think that's gorgeous. Absolutely.

 

Debbie 

So, you know, it may seem hard now, but you know, you could come out the other end so much. I don't know. Like, I look back and I think like I said, I wouldn't recognize myself and I, I wouldn't even need to ask someone what happy is now because I live a life that I'm happy. And I don't think any of us, we need to live a life that we're not happy with.

 

Becca 

I think that's beautiful. Deb, thank you so much for sharing your story with us and spending some time with me. Tell me how can people find you for when they're ready to dip their toe in the dating pool again, and they will be

 

Debbie 

so they can find me on my website, debbierivers.com.au.

 

Becca 

Okay, and on the socials,

 

Debbie 

socials at Debbie rivers dating expert,

 

Becca 

beautiful. I'm going to copy these in the show notes so people can find you. Thanks again for your time.

 

Debbie 

Thank you so much for having me.

 

Becca 

Thanks for listening. I hope you took something of value out of this episode. I'm your host, Becca Maxwell. And you can find me on the web at dodivorceright.com or on Instagram at dodivorceright. I look forward to connecting with you there.